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#44671 - 21/01/09 12:03 PM Re: Change [Re: Mark Bradshaw]
Oldun Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1750
Loc: Renens, Vaud, Switzerland
Age gives us the unique chance to see many US Presidents and many UK Governments and the ability to notice tell tale signs during the months following an election of what is going to happen to each new administration.

Since 1945 every freely elected Labour government has proven its ability to mishandle the British economy and has been ejected from office by a frustrated population. Each Conservative government that has been elected into office and has had to take on the disaster inherited from the out going Labour theorists and extremists. Each Conservative governments arrival has been greeted with initial applause, which quickly turned into hate as they have had to make drastic decisions to get the country back onto its feet again.

We must watch closely to see how quickly the adulation that has greeted President Obama turns into back biting if he is unable to deliver on his promises in the time required by the American population.

The one thing going for him is that he is a fluent orator who has the ability to inspire the masses of not only Americans, but masses of free and not so free peoples around the world. If he can maintain the belief in the massive American work force that after the initial hard times to come their lives will be better, then he will succeed.

The sad truth for Britain is that, unlike the USA we do not currently have in any party an awe inspiring orator in our political system who can light the masses into hysteria of selfless patriotism that will drive our country out of its politically correct, jack’s alright, lethargy and fear of success.

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#44672 - 21/01/09 04:26 PM Re: Change [Re: Oldun]
Bliss 60 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/05/07
Posts: 273
Loc: Birmingham
Not sure that I agree with all of this Oldun. I think you may well be older than me, but my limited experience since the beginning of the Thatcher Government (and I think you may well be right that the Callaghan Government was certainly a disaster that brought on the catastrophe and punishment of the Thatcher years) - and the only conclusion I would draw is that any political party that hangs around for years eventually loses sight of accountability and is difficult to re-elect.

I don't think the scenario was as you suggested at the election of the Blair Government. If anything, the Major Government before Blair was an economic catastrophe - perhaps not of the scale we are going through now - and the Blair Government stabilised the economy and earned a reputation for sound economic management for many years.

I am also not entirely convinced that a Tory Government will come in and put right the things that this current Government has got wrong. Firstly - I am not sure that everything that has been got wrong is the fault of this Government. The current economic problems have largely been caused by irresponsible lending by banks. Before the collapse happened, everyone knew that banks should not be lending 5 or 6 times people's salaries without deposits, but before the credit crunch, no Government would have had public support to stop them doing so. And of course a lot of these problems have hit us from USA - and not a lot a UK Government could have done about that.

Secondly - your recipe that the Tories are going to come in and sort everything out. Whilst I have no idea whether the current Government does have the answers to the global economic crisis, I certainly haven't yet heard the Tories say anything about what they would have done differently or what they are going to do if they ever get into power. Certainly nothing that would suggest that the Tories have any ideas of how they are going to put right what is a massive global problem.

Sorry - I realise that this is nothing to do with walking - but I had to respond to what I consider to have been some very sweeping and incorrect analysis.

As regards Obama - at least there's a bit of hope there now. Enormous challenges to come, but at least Bush has gone . A president who rigged his election in the first place and a record that includes destruction of the world economy; a massive escalation of global hate and fear as a result of his disastrous wars; an appalling record on the environment; and policies developed on the basis of religious bigotry and intolerance. History will judge Bush a total disaster. Compared to that, Obama's a breath of fresh air.

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#44674 - 21/01/09 05:09 PM Re: Change [Re: uncle arthur]
Lounge Lizard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/05/06
Posts: 2013
Loc: Stafford
Originally Posted By: uncle arthur
Change is coming to America and as ever it'll all end in tears.


Yes, it will.
Optimism never works.
If he is destined to do good he will go the way of Kennedy, if he is destined to let everyone down he will hang on for years like Bliar.
All doom and gloom yet again.

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#44675 - 21/01/09 08:25 PM Re: Change [Re: Bliss 60]
Mark Bradshaw Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/10/08
Posts: 238
Originally Posted By: Bliss 60
Not sure that I agree with all of this Oldun. I think you may well be older than me, but my limited experience since the beginning of the Thatcher Government (and I think you may well be right that the Callaghan Government was certainly a disaster that brought on the catastrophe and punishment of the Thatcher years) - and the only conclusion I would draw is that any political party that hangs around for years eventually loses sight of accountability and is difficult to re-elect.

I don't think the scenario was as you suggested at the election of the Blair Government. If anything, the Major Government before Blair was an economic catastrophe - perhaps not of the scale we are going through now - and the Blair Government stabilised the economy and earned a reputation for sound economic management for many years.

I am also not entirely convinced that a Tory Government will come in and put right the things that this current Government has got wrong. Firstly - I am not sure that everything that has been got wrong is the fault of this Government. The current economic problems have largely been caused by irresponsible lending by banks. Before the collapse happened, everyone knew that banks should not be lending 5 or 6 times people's salaries without deposits, but before the credit crunch, no Government would have had public support to stop them doing so. And of course a lot of these problems have hit us from USA - and not a lot a UK Government could have done about that.

Secondly - your recipe that the Tories are going to come in and sort everything out. Whilst I have no idea whether the current Government does have the answers to the global economic crisis, I certainly haven't yet heard the Tories say anything about what they would have done differently or what they are going to do if they ever get into power. Certainly nothing that would suggest that the Tories have any ideas of how they are going to put right what is a massive global problem.

Sorry - I realise that this is nothing to do with walking - but I had to respond to what I consider to have been some very sweeping and incorrect analysis.

As regards Obama - at least there's a bit of hope there now. Enormous challenges to come, but at least Bush has gone . A president who rigged his election in the first place and a record that includes destruction of the world economy; a massive escalation of global hate and fear as a result of his disastrous wars; an appalling record on the environment; and policies developed on the basis of religious bigotry and intolerance. History will judge Bush a total disaster. Compared to that, Obama's a breath of fresh air.


For me the Tories deservedly lost the 1997 General Election,but they had become tired and aimless,which was - as you say - a result of being in power too long. However,the country was a bit more economically sound,but that did not fare with the electorate,and at least Bliar and Brown had something to work on,rather than the mess the Tories inherited in 1979. Labour deservedly won the election,and I welcomed them. As the months progressed,I noticed something of a bit of disliking towards Bliar - he was coming over as too in the face and phoney. Not wanting to start a debate about the monarchy,but when it was the golden wedding anniversary of the Queen and Prince Phillip,Bliar and the Wicked Witch took over the show. Also,when he was being interviewed in a kitchen (maybe his London home or Trimdon),he was holding a cup,as if there was tea or coffee supposedly in it. It was empty. A small thing maybe,but for me it was so phoney.
Indeed,he won the next two elections,but that was because there was no opposition and no alternative for the electors to ponder over. Why did he go when he did? Did he know of an oncoming economic meltdown,and decided to pass the buck? Did he know that he might lose the next general election and wanted to go out a winner.
I am not saying David Cameron can solve all the ills of this country,but this Labour administration is like the Tories of 1997 - tired and listless. So a change is needed over here as well.
FInally,one of the biggest tragedies to have happened in this country's politics in the last fifteen years was the death of John Smith,the man who replaced the hapless Neil Kinnock. I may not have agreed with John Smith's policies,but at least he was honest and stuck to his convictions. If fate hadn't dealt him a cruel hand,we might have been spared the Bliar years and a more sound Parliament might have been in operation,rather than the one festered with a one party chamber,riddled with sound bites,over promoted individuals and a bombastic Prime Minister.
I agree to an extent with Lounge Lizard,that President Obama has ridden onthe same euphoria that welcomed President Tone in 1997,but listening to him yesterday,he came over as stronger and I believed in him. In 1997,I had only hope in Bliar,and that hope disappeared a few months later.
Nimrod

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#44681 - 22/01/09 07:35 AM Re: Change [Re: Mark Bradshaw]
Bliss 60 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/05/07
Posts: 273
Loc: Birmingham
Mark - I think your views probably echo the views of most people in the country now - and there's every chance that we will end up with Cameron's Tories - which frightens the life out of me - not least because I haven't heard anything yet about what they will do - and I'm not convinced that they know.

With regards Blair, I think you might be echoing what people think now retrospectively, but pre-war, Blair had huge popularity ratings. It was the war that did for him, and - yes - he went because he didn't want to lose an election, because post war he would have done.

I actually think that the Blair Government and the current Government are doing some good things - not the big headline grabbing things, but the bits and pieces that go towards making life happen for people - particularly people at the bottom end of society - things like the minimum wage, improvements in social housing, childcare facilities, Homestart centres etc etc.

But the reality is that politics is 5% about doing the right thing and 95% about getting things right in the media. I don't think Blair can be blamed for using spin and Alastair Campbell. Any sensible politician would do this because they know that the Sun, the Mail and the Express shape the way that people vote. te real reason why Brown is less popular than Blair is because he is not as good as managing the media and he's not as charismatic. And of course Cameron is as much of an addict of spin as Blair was - possibly more so - because as I say - can anyone tell me anything of substance that the Tories currently stand for?

And if anyone thinks that Obama is not using spin, they are being wonderfully naive. He has used it so effectively that some people may well think that he hasn't used it - and I suspect he has had his eyes set on his route for the last 10 years or more. But so what? The public expects spin and its only in the cynical UK that we complain about it when we are given what we want.

The key thing in all of this is what these people actually do in terms of the big questions but perhaps more importantly in terms of the little things that make a difference to ordinary peoples lives behind the scenes and out of the headlines.

My work is largely in council and housing association housing - and I know that under the Blair and Brown Governments there have been a lot of improvements for ordinary people. Under the previous Tory Governments, there was barely a policy for housing - and the people who lived in it were not considered an important policy issue. I want to know from politicians what they are going to do for the most weak and vulnerable in our society - the stuff that doesn't grab the headlines.

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#44683 - 22/01/09 09:12 AM Re: Change [Re: Bliss 60]
Oldun Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1750
Loc: Renens, Vaud, Switzerland
Bliss & Mark. A serious thank you for your comments following my recent post. Wonderful stuff.

I basically agree with what you both say. However, whether my initial comments were sweepingly inaccurate depends upon ones personal perspective and how life has treated you.

As you so rightly say, life has clearly shown that political parties go stale when they are left in power too long: immersed in their own incompetence. But it is us who re-elect them. So who is to blame?

Case in point, I would bring your attention to the latest, now state run Northern Rock imbecility, of spending 10 million pounds of tax payer’s bail-out money in bonuses to employees at a time of media inflamed national crisis. Government incompetence? Personal perspective? Government by media?

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#44688 - 22/01/09 04:45 PM Re: Change [Re: Dr.BongoBingo]
Sam Peps Offline
Full Member

Registered: 20/02/05
Posts: 163
Originally Posted By: Dr.BongoBingo
Originally Posted By: uncle arthur

There are even idiotic wimps on this site, who have nothing better to do than complain to the regulators



And if anybody questions the degree of "over-reaction" or "Little Hitlerism"
of such action perhaps they should proceed ,with caution, to the following link
where ,in my opening post, I quote a delightful selection of "odd controversial comments".

http://www.coast2coast.co.uk/forum/ubbth...=true#Post39313

Regards
Dr.BB


Yes, a timely reminder of "S" inability to cope with contra-opinion or fact based learning with anything other than a demonstration of his inner malady. Truly a sick and twisted man in the bitter winter of his years.
_________________________
Hebrews 4: 12

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#44691 - 22/01/09 06:40 PM Re: Change [Re: ]
Slogger Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 2892
Loc: West Lancs.
Just to add my bit. As I recall there was one major reason for the Conservatives losing the election after Thatcher, and that was the introduction of that awful Poll Tax. But for that they would have got in again.
Dave.

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#44695 - 22/01/09 08:13 PM Re: Change [Re: Slogger]
tim smith Offline
Full Member

Registered: 28/10/06
Posts: 1054
Loc: england
The hand that rocks the baby rules the world
and that hand spoiles the baby '' what baby want's baby gets ''
and if it means paying this year or next baby must have.
and that is the cause of all our problems.
_________________________
ern

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#44700 - 23/01/09 08:51 AM Re: Change [Re: ]
tim smith Offline
Full Member

Registered: 28/10/06
Posts: 1054
Loc: england
i thought it was self explanatory
the people,as a nation, are spending money they have not got
_________________________
ern

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