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#53204 - 13/01/10 12:01 AM GPS yes or know why
dregsy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/01/10
Posts: 8
I would have never bought a GPS myself just because I like maps and don't like gizmos, however my wife bought me a basic Garmin system for Christmas and now I am looking forward to giving it a go primarily on the C2C later in the year but I will give it a good go beforehand. When CD players came out I resisted for years PCs Mobile phones are all part of the problem for me, but they're here to stay, I just find myself thinking resistance really is futile so why try at 43 yrs old am i a grumpy old man before my time?

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#53206 - 13/01/10 08:46 AM Re: GPS yes or know why [Re: dregsy]
Oldun Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1750
Loc: Renens, Vaud, Switzerland
dregsy. Your post is case in point of the many hundreds of passed posts on this chat line concerning the use of a gps. If the Search engine on the line was easier to use we could find out all the information that has been previously sent.

note to noj.

However, in my personal opinion a gps is best used in conjunction with a standard compass and OS map.

The gps is not used as a guidance system, but used to obtain a grid reference that can be transferred on to an OS map. Then with the use of a compass and correct map orientation, to obtain the direction of travel.

In my opinion, to rely only on a gps to give you the direction of travel is unreliable at best and suicidal at worst, especially where the cheaper gasís are concerned.

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#53209 - 13/01/10 10:07 AM Re: GPS yes or know why [Re: Oldun]
Reluctanttrucker Offline
Full Member

Registered: 26/09/09
Posts: 738
Loc: Earth. Usually,but not exclusi...
Originally Posted By: Oldun
dregsy. Your post is case in point of the many hundreds of passed posts on this chat line concerning the use of a gps. If the Search engine on the line was easier to use we could find out all the information that has been previously sent.

note to noj.

However, in my personal opinion a gps is best used in conjunction with a standard compass and OS map.

The gps is not used as a guidance system, but used to obtain a grid reference that can be transferred on to an OS map. Then with the use of a compass and correct map orientation, to obtain the direction of travel.

In my opinion, to rely only on a gps to give you the direction of travel is unreliable at best and suicidal at worst, especially where the cheaper gas’s are concerned.


I won't be using a GPS mainly because I can't afford one.
But If I could,I would use the most basic one,just to give a grid ref,and then back to map compass and eyes.(Don't forget the magnetic variation. Do GPS compansate for this?)
_________________________
Next one.
June 5th 2016.
The Fifth anniversary of C2C1
Yup Mad as hatters.


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#53210 - 13/01/10 11:49 AM Re: GPS yes or know why [Re: Oldun]
tim smith Offline
Full Member

Registered: 28/10/06
Posts: 1054
Loc: england
Originally Posted By: Oldun
dregsy. Your post is case in point of the many hundreds of passed posts on this chat line concerning the use of a gps. If the Search engine on the line was easier to use we could find out all the information that has been previously sent.

note to noj.

However, in my personal opinion a gps is best used in conjunction with a standard compass and OS map.

The gps is not used as a guidance system, but used to obtain a grid reference that can be transferred on to an OS map. Then with the use of a compass and correct map orientation, to obtain the direction of travel.

In my opinion, to rely only on a gps to give you the direction of travel is unreliable at best and suicidal at worst, especially where the cheaper gasís are concerned.





Oldun,
I have before me a local news paper With Headlines, Snow Heroes
Mountain rescue team trecking for an hour to find five "experienced"? walkers
these 5 had used a GPS to tell the mountain rescue team where
they were, but were that experienced, even when these walkers knew where they were ,they were still lost, I ask you, how do class experience?
_________________________
ern

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#53211 - 13/01/10 11:58 AM Re: GPS yes or know why [Re: tim smith]
Reluctanttrucker Offline
Full Member

Registered: 26/09/09
Posts: 738
Loc: Earth. Usually,but not exclusi...
Originally Posted By: tim smith
Oldun,
I have before me a local news paper With Headlines, Snow Heroes
Mountain rescue team trecking for an hour to find five "experienced"? walkers
these 5 had used a GPS to tell the mountain rescue team where
they were, but were that experienced, even when these walkers knew where they were ,they were still lost, I ask you, how do class experience?


If they knew where they were,they were not lost.
Lost, is defined as not knowing where you are; surely?
I presume they were just not able to find a way back,or one of the party was incapacitated in some way.

By the way. Is it not time that the Government funded the MRT.Having wathched an article on TV this morning.The Peak MRT have had 34 callouts in the last week.
More than they had LAST YEAR.
_________________________
Next one.
June 5th 2016.
The Fifth anniversary of C2C1
Yup Mad as hatters.


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#53212 - 13/01/10 12:53 PM Re: GPS yes or know why [Re: Reluctanttrucker]
tim smith Offline
Full Member

Registered: 28/10/06
Posts: 1054
Loc: england


for the full story about the experienced walkers lost on the North York Moors , go to www.thepress.co.uk
click down lefthandside for letters
click on more news under letters column
click on walkers slated
under neath related links
_________________________
ern

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#53214 - 13/01/10 02:37 PM Re: GPS yes or know why [Re: tim smith]
Reluctanttrucker Offline
Full Member

Registered: 26/09/09
Posts: 738
Loc: Earth. Usually,but not exclusi...
So one got seperated from the rest,and they didn't notice for HOW LONG? Just goes to show that you should always expect the unexpected.

Hope they have deep pockets.
_________________________
Next one.
June 5th 2016.
The Fifth anniversary of C2C1
Yup Mad as hatters.


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#53215 - 13/01/10 02:47 PM Re: GPS yes or know why [Re: tim smith]
slowcoach Offline
Full Member

Registered: 30/07/09
Posts: 1925
Loc: Yorkshire
Certain aspects of this story puzzle me.

The rescuers had to "abandon" their landrovers. Whilst this may have been due to the prevailing conditions it is unlikely. If you know the area the access road into Bumble Wood is always kept locked and driving over Wheeldale Moor is not possible, even in summer. Some will remember the fire engine getting stuck in 1976 whilst attending the fire there. What looks like dry moorland is in reality somewhat boggy. (The fire engine could not be extricated and eventually burnt out when the flames reached it).

How were the walkers "experienced?". You can be an experienced walker but only under certain conditions. Did they set off in a blizzard (as most people would not do) or were they caught in a blizzard (as many of us have been). Did the snow last Friday not start until mid afternoon?

What sort of GPS did they carry. Some give a basic grid reference and show a greyed out stylised route. Others use OS maps and show the same info as an OS map. This means, if you can use it, that you cannot get lost! It is one thing having a map (AA atlas) and another having an OS map, In the same way a basic GPS is worlds apart from the more comprehnsive ones.

I am interested in the comments after the story, especially from those criticising winter walking. The story afterwards tells of the fire brigade rescuing a sledger who had come to grief on a steep hill. Do we for the same reasons ban sledging then as it puts others at risk?

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#53217 - 13/01/10 03:56 PM Re: GPS yes or know why [Re: slowcoach]
Oldun Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1750
Loc: Renens, Vaud, Switzerland
On Tuesday my mate and I went snowshoeing in the local hills in an area well known to us. An hour out we got into low cloud and then a total white out with temperature dropping below minus 10C. We could see absolutely nothing except a blinding white disorientating brilliance. We staggered on for about 30 minutes then decided to call it a day.

The cloud was so thick by that time I could just see my mate standing next to me. Our very basic gps gave us the general line back and by bending down we could just make out the traces of our snowshoes. So using our snow poles to lean on we shuffled back bent double for just over two hours to the base hut; which we were unable to see until we touched the walls.

Quite a scary and very disorientating experience, as to look up from the tracks for longer than four paces took us off course. Normally one would see shadows of where the tracks were, but in the white out there were no shadows, just a growing gloom as the sun went down.

In the whiteness your eyes start playing tricks on you, like seeing shadows where none exist and watching the liver spots float around in front of your vision.

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#53218 - 13/01/10 04:23 PM Re: GPS yes or know why [Re: Oldun]
tim smith Offline
Full Member

Registered: 28/10/06
Posts: 1054
Loc: england

I have been off course on Fylingdales moor in a white out years ago before Sat navs.
our party were walking the Lyke Wake Walk, E to W.
we found a land mark ,realized we were off course and turned to walk south towards Lilla Cross, we must have passed within yards from it and never saw it, finished up further on at the back of the Early Warning Station.
no I have no problem with walkers going out on The North York Moors in winter, how else will they get the experience.
and these walkers who had to be rescued will be more experienced now.
_________________________
ern

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#53219 - 13/01/10 04:27 PM Re: GPS yes or know why [Re: tim smith]
tim smith Offline
Full Member

Registered: 28/10/06
Posts: 1054
Loc: england

slowcoach, yes I remember the fire engine, did you ever see the tractor on Fylingdales, just the air intake pipe and the exhaust sticking out off the bog.
_________________________
ern

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#53220 - 13/01/10 04:36 PM Re: GPS yes or know why [Re: tim smith]
tim smith Offline
Full Member

Registered: 28/10/06
Posts: 1054
Loc: england


re bogged tractor , it could have been on Stony Marl Moor
_________________________
ern

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#53221 - 13/01/10 04:48 PM Re: GPS yes or know why [Re: tim smith]
slowcoach Offline
Full Member

Registered: 30/07/09
Posts: 1925
Loc: Yorkshire
Hi Tim. No I haven't seen the tractor. Do you have a location please? I saw the remains of the aeroplane above Low Mill that crashed during the war and spoke to one of the lads who took a pair of scissors from it! Also, the owner of Spaunton Grange was killed when an aircraft crashed into his field and the blast blew a kitchen door open crushing him.

I believe the remains of the fire engine are still there, but, shame on me to say, I haven't been back since those long nights fighting the moorland fires!

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#53222 - 13/01/10 05:16 PM Re: GPS yes or know why [Re: slowcoach]
tim smith Offline
Full Member

Registered: 28/10/06
Posts: 1054
Loc: england


Slowcoach, time flies,
i was over there a few weeks ago , whoa when i think about it,
it was some time in 1991 and the remains of the fire engine was still there,
you must be getting a bit long in the tooth if you were fighting that fire, what a dangerous job. a change of wind direction and you can be in trouble.
there are a lot of people we take forgranted.
i have been involved with fires getting out of control
a workman set some dry dockings on fire in a hayfield one morning,
I was the first one back to the field after dinner and ruined a pair of boots stamping the fire out before it had chance to burn the crop of hay.
the wife was non to pleased at me wasting a pair of boots.
dangerous stuff fire , when you are out side ,if you run away it seems to chase you. I suppose that is because you cause a vacuum.

the tractor , last time i was that way there was no sign of it.
I reckon it would have been at OL951 005
that is quessing as I did not take a grid reference at the time
and it would have been at least thirty years ago.
_________________________
ern

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#53225 - 13/01/10 08:48 PM Re: GPS yes or know why [Re: tim smith]
slowcoach Offline
Full Member

Registered: 30/07/09
Posts: 1925
Loc: Yorkshire
My most vivid memory of the fire was the night that a rep from Newcastle Brewery turned up with about a dozen creates full of ale for "the firefighters". Once news got round people appeared from nowhere! Two arrivals wereceven dressed in suits and a collar and tie. The alarm was raised on 26th June and the flames were eventually extinguished on 17th September when Stokesly had about 7in of rain in 24 hours. (Remember the town going underwater?)

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#53227 - 13/01/10 10:58 PM Re: GPS yes or know why [Re: Reluctanttrucker]
Geo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 19/09/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Oamaru, New Zealand
Originally Posted By: Reluctanttrucker

I won't be using a GPS mainly because I can't afford one.
But If I could,I would use the most basic one,just to give a grid ref,and then back to map compass and eyes.(Don't forget the magnetic variation. Do GPS compansate for this?)


Been quite a bit on this, but as Oldun says it's not easy to locate! Yes, a gps can be set to either give you a magnetic or true bearing. compass variation can be quite high in some locations - some of the spots I go to, the difference is over 20 degrees, so if using a gps in conjunction with your compass then it is critical to know what setting your gps is on.
IMO map & compass skill is the ace in the pack, but a gps is invaluable in situations of 'whiteout' or becoming disorientated in featureless or restricted vision terrain.
If the co-ordinates of your base camp are entered before leaving (a simple question of just pushing a button and giving the base a name) then in the event of a 'whiteout' scenario you can immediately get your gps to give you a compass bearing to follow back to your destination. Similarly, if you get the coordinates of your destination from your map and enter them before leaving, then you'll have the option of continuing on.
I remember it being drilled into us that because it relies on electricity, 'radar is an aid to navigation' and not a substitute for it. Although I often carry a gps and find it offers good peace of mind, I think of it in the same way!
_________________________
Dances With Marmots

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#53244 - 14/01/10 01:18 PM Re: GPS yes or know why [Re: dregsy]
mickey Offline
Full Member

Registered: 26/07/09
Posts: 126
Originally Posted By: dregsy
I would have never bought a GPS myself just because I like maps and don't like gizmos, however my wife bought me a basic Garmin system for Christmas and now I am looking forward to giving it a go primarily on the C2C later in the year but I will give it a good go beforehand. When CD players came out I resisted for years PCs Mobile phones are all part of the problem for me, but they're here to stay, I just find myself thinking resistance really is futile so why try at 43 yrs old am i a grumpy old man before my time?


I'm 38 and a bit stuck in my ways, I recently got a phone with a GPS app on it which gives you your OS grid co-ordinates amongst other bells and whistles. We got caught up above Patterdale a couple of months ago in white out conditions which slowed us down considerably and the GPS was invaluable in getting us down below the weather quickly as we started to lose daylight.

TBH that's the only time I've used it as if you have decent visibility a map and compass is more than adequate.

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#53248 - 14/01/10 05:04 PM Re: GPS yes or know why [Re: mickey]
Slogger Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 2893
Loc: West Lancs.
I agree with Oldun on this.
After I purchased mine some years ago, at first I used it a couple of time combined with routes that I had set on Memory Map and downloaded to the GPS. Following the arrow on the unit, you end up only seeing the GPS and not the surroundings. I dont use it this way anymore. In fact I only have it in my rucsac, in case i need to know my exact location, as I spend a lot of my walking cross country, off the paths. Map and compass for me with the occasional GPS location to set another compass bearing from a known position.
Dave.

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#53253 - 14/01/10 05:45 PM Re: GPS yes or know why [Re: Slogger]
slowcoach Offline
Full Member

Registered: 30/07/09
Posts: 1925
Loc: Yorkshire
In reality, having a quality GPS which shows OS maps on it can be likened to having a paper map in that you still have read it and follow directions! You don't however, have the problems that paper maps create when windy or you are on the edge of a sheet or in rain (even with a waterproof cover). Checking a location/ checking a route takes less then 10 seconds in all weathers. But, at the end of the day it is how you intend to use it that matters.

As I have said before, if your walking is mainly on identifiable paths and you don't intend to get lost (in the snow) then maps are fine. If you walk across open terrain in all weathers then once the mist comes down they are a great comfort as you always know your exact position (as opposed to a rough estimate)and you can identify hazards that you are aiming towards. Without a GPS this becomes more difficult.

However, for many, using only a map and compass adds to their fun ... and long may it be so!!!

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