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#58675 - 25/10/10 09:45 PM 17 or 18 days
tworivers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/02/10
Posts: 46
I am thinking of doing the Pennine Way over 17 days in June. That would leave me walking 26 miles on the last day from Byrness to Kirk Yetholm. Is this is ok ? Are there a lot of steep ascents and descents on this stage, or is it fairly straightforward moorland walking ?
Many thanks for your advice.

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#58677 - 25/10/10 10:50 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: tworivers]
tim smith Offline
Full Member

Registered: 28/10/06
Posts: 1054
Loc: england
if you are wild camping I would advise you split it in to two days,
we camped at Chew Green and did it in 10hours 20 minutes ,with two breaks totaling 45 minutes, but you will have an extra 5 and 1/4 to walk and there are quite a few steep ups and downs.
_________________________
ern

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#58684 - 26/10/10 09:04 AM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: tim smith]
Slogger Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 2893
Loc: West Lancs.
Once you have climbed the initial steepness up onto the ridge, out of Byreness the rest is undulating basic moorland walking mostly on a flagged surface and then the long descent into Kirk Yetholme. There are two refuge huts en route where you can take a break.
I did it in one go in horrendously wet and windy conditions and took around 13 hours including the two rests to make a brew and have something to eat. Some walkers stay in the last refuge hut overnight and do the final bit the next day, you have to take a chance on whether others will be planning on doing the same, at the same time.
Dave.

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#58686 - 26/10/10 10:49 AM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: tworivers]
Stottie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 21/02/07
Posts: 568
Loc: Derbyshire, England
If you're fit when you get to Byrness, you'll do it in one day. When I was in my mid 50s I did it in less than 12 hours in good conditions.

Have a word with Joyce and Colin at Forest View in Byrness. They offer transport solutions if you want to split it into 2 days. Such an option might be available on an ad hoc basis, so you might be able to make your final decision when you assess your fitness once you've reached Alston or Greenhead.
_________________________
Pete

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#58687 - 26/10/10 11:04 AM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: Stottie]
walkanddrink Offline
Full Member

Registered: 19/06/10
Posts: 119
Loc: Blackpool
I'm planning to do the last leg in one long slog in May next year so hopefully it should be OK. Has to be as I've already booked the room in the Border Inn

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#58692 - 26/10/10 04:19 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: walkanddrink]
joyce taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 31/01/07
Posts: 317
Loc: byrness village
If there is room on my bus when you are in Byrness you can break it into 2 days.Priority goes to people who are staying with us at Forest View or The Old Post Office B & B.but I did 2 trips up to the drop off in one day on several occasions this May & June. June is one of the busyiest months along with may so the refuge hut is more likely to be occupied.
_________________________
http://www.forestviewbyrness.co.uk
#1 place to stay in Byrness (tripadvisor)

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#58693 - 26/10/10 05:55 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: joyce taylor]
Les + Heidi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/01/09
Posts: 327
Loc: hertfordshire
You dont say if your camping along the rest of the route but if you are and assuming the weather is ok(ish) I'd break it into two days and really enjoy it. For me it's one off the nicest sections of the whole walk. Also lots of folks going over in one go dont seem to visit the Cheviot summit which seems most odd to me !!
There are wild pitch opportunities at both huts, just before windy gyle (half way point), at clennel st and a tiny spot where you branch off to go to the summit of the cheviot.
Whatever you decide, enjoy, its a cracking walk.
Les

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#58696 - 26/10/10 09:48 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: Les + Heidi]
Bliss 60 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/05/07
Posts: 273
Loc: Birmingham
Uswayford Farm is presumably still an option for an overnight stop half way along the route (although its a 1&1/2 mile detour)? At least it was when I did it in 2006.

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#58697 - 26/10/10 10:17 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: Bliss 60]
tworivers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/02/10
Posts: 46
Thanks for that. I am B&Bing it, so I should be relatively fit by then, all being well ! Haha
It is my intention to stay with Joyce. As June is a busy month, I better get it all booked up !
Think I'll do that stretch in one day, and hope for better weather than Slogger had...

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#58699 - 27/10/10 08:41 AM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: Bliss 60]
kevm Offline
Full Member

Registered: 24/01/05
Posts: 24
Loc: Sheffield, South Yorkshire,UK
Originally Posted By: Bliss 60
Uswayford Farm is presumably still an option for an overnight stop half way along the route (although its a 1&1/2 mile detour)? At least it was when I did it in 2006.


The owners of Uswayford Farm have retired and the new owners don't do B&B.

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#58706 - 27/10/10 07:22 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: kevm]
slowcoach Offline
Full Member

Registered: 30/07/09
Posts: 1925
Loc: Yorkshire
Although Uswayford has ceased trading, whilst I was there the occupant told me that she worked alongside some of the other farms just off the way. They would pass walkers on to each other if they were full, sometimes even transporting them. I suggest that you try ringing some of them. However, that said, I would take advantage of Joyce's offer just to be sure.

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#58713 - 28/10/10 11:22 AM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: slowcoach]
joyce taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 31/01/07
Posts: 317
Loc: byrness village
If you wouldn`t get into an unlicenced taxi in a town why do it in the country especially on such a perilous road as the MOD road. It is illegal for accommodation providers to transport guests in their car wether or not they accept payment,unless they have a private hire licence or a public service vehichle licence.This is why we spent several months and several thousands of pounds jumping through hoops for VOSA (vehichle operators services agency) The thought of crashing with someone in and not being licenced and insured is just not an option.
_________________________
http://www.forestviewbyrness.co.uk
#1 place to stay in Byrness (tripadvisor)

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#58714 - 28/10/10 03:39 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: joyce taylor]
slowcoach Offline
Full Member

Registered: 30/07/09
Posts: 1925
Loc: Yorkshire
Does this mean that accommodation providers who pick up walkers at, and return them to, say, The Lion or Hagg's Gate on the C to C are falling foul of the law?

I ask this because some farms advertise in official leaflets/brochures etc as offering this service to walkers. If it is illegal, then councils, National Parks, National Trail leaflets etc should not carry their adverts without first checking on them possessing a license.

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#58715 - 28/10/10 05:55 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: slowcoach]
joyce taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 31/01/07
Posts: 317
Loc: byrness village
Got it in one and vosa have just realised that they can catch offenders without even leaving the office. On a more serious note to retain a PSV licence the vehichle must pass a detailed safety check at a VOSA centre every 10 weeks so you know that the car or bus is more likely to be mechanically sound. The private car of an accommodation provider has only to pass an MOT one a year and in the meantime could have had it`s brakes fixed at some back street garage or by a helpful neighbour.
_________________________
http://www.forestviewbyrness.co.uk
#1 place to stay in Byrness (tripadvisor)

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#58717 - 28/10/10 06:39 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: joyce taylor]
Slogger Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 2893
Loc: West Lancs.
I see your point Joyce about licensing etc, but it can't be illegal to give someone a lift for free, only if you are charging for it. Many B&Bs offer lifts but dont charge so are within the law. They will be insured as the lift itself, is not for hire or reward.
Dave.

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#58719 - 28/10/10 07:20 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: Slogger]
slowcoach Offline
Full Member

Registered: 30/07/09
Posts: 1925
Loc: Yorkshire
Thanks for the reply Joyce. This poses an interesting dilemma. Is there a difference then between someone who advertises that a lift to/from a location, free or otherwise, and someone who gives spur of the moment lifts to people who otherwise would be in difficulty?


I presume from what you write that
"Cross Fell View. Lifts offered to/from the end of the radar station road" is using transport as part of the inducement and therefore needs to be licensed.

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#58720 - 28/10/10 07:24 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: slowcoach]
slowcoach Offline
Full Member

Registered: 30/07/09
Posts: 1925
Loc: Yorkshire
The above was submitted too early ...


But how about Mrs Gaggins who is fully booked and infrequently offers her husband's services to ferry someone a mile up the road? Would, in this specific case, they be covered on their car insurance, provided it was insured for business use?

(I am not trying to catch you out, I am trying to clarify the situation before I raise it at work. We have a well paid legal department to sort the finer details out!)

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#58724 - 28/10/10 11:33 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: slowcoach]
joyce taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 31/01/07
Posts: 317
Loc: byrness village
It dosen`t matter if you charge or not if you give lifts to customers you must be licenced as private hire or PSV. If a customer needed a lift to hospital in an emergency this would be allowed but not to the pub or to and from a walking route etc. If in doubt ring VOSA they will leave you in no doubt whatsoever.If I could work the links thingy I would put the link in to VOSA`s website. I spent a long time trying (unsuccessfully) to find a cheaper way to do it legally in the end I just bit the bullet and did what the gov. required.
_________________________
http://www.forestviewbyrness.co.uk
#1 place to stay in Byrness (tripadvisor)

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#58727 - 29/10/10 07:44 AM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: joyce taylor]
slowcoach Offline
Full Member

Registered: 30/07/09
Posts: 1925
Loc: Yorkshire
Thanks Joyce. I'll raise this tomorrow and see what the council's reaction is to their adverts!!!!

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#58732 - 29/10/10 10:37 AM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: slowcoach]
joyce taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 31/01/07
Posts: 317
Loc: byrness village
The actual wording of the law is if lifts are offered more than occassionally. I insisted that someone define occassionally and they said if it happened once or at a push twice in any one year it was more than occassionally,so if it is an advertised or even regularly offered service it must have the correct licence.(even if it was only twice a year how could you know that a third more urgent case might not come up?)
_________________________
http://www.forestviewbyrness.co.uk
#1 place to stay in Byrness (tripadvisor)

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#58733 - 29/10/10 10:47 AM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: joyce taylor]
joyce taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 31/01/07
Posts: 317
Loc: byrness village
Some people are doing it legally if you go to the VOSA site there is an anonymous search by post code type in the post code hit search and it will tell you if there is a PSV lic at that address.We have one and I know Keld Lodge further down the Pennine Way has one there will be others but not many, it is much safer to check than guess.
_________________________
http://www.forestviewbyrness.co.uk
#1 place to stay in Byrness (tripadvisor)

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#58737 - 29/10/10 06:02 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: joyce taylor]
Les + Heidi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/01/09
Posts: 327
Loc: hertfordshire
Ive heard of some places offering the service but they use a local taxi firm to get around this licence issue.

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#58739 - 29/10/10 06:15 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: Les + Heidi]
Slogger Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 2893
Loc: West Lancs.
Some legally then, but there must be lots more that are not aware of the necessity of a license. For example our B&B in St Bees offered us a lift from the Station, however we walked. They gave up a lift to and back from the pub later on and gave my wife a lift to the Station the following morning. As you know this kind of thing happens all the time, if it is illegal they need to know.
Dave.

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#58740 - 29/10/10 10:28 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: Slogger]
joyce taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 31/01/07
Posts: 317
Loc: byrness village
If they are star rated by Visit Britain then the info is very prominent on the Members website and `tourism toolbox`,that`s how I knew both that I needed to do it and how to go about it.It`s not worth taking the risk of getting sued and losing your business or worse still your home.
_________________________
http://www.forestviewbyrness.co.uk
#1 place to stay in Byrness (tripadvisor)

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#58758 - 30/10/10 07:54 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: joyce taylor]
slowcoach Offline
Full Member

Registered: 30/07/09
Posts: 1925
Loc: Yorkshire
Mentioned this at work today.

Councils have evidently already been informed of the legal position and now no longer accept adverts which suggest that a lift may be available. Stockists of their leaflets have been asked to replace older leaflets with up to date ones. It is probably only dinosaurs like me that still have old ones stuffed in their information folder (but, I might add, not from Monday). Councils, of course, have no powers over privately produced literature other than refusing to stock/sell them.

I asked how the law regarded me giving occasional lifts to distressed/misplaced/disinclined to continue visitors.

In my own vehicle I must be insured for business use (which I am) and in a liveried vehicle I am covered by the council insurance. My job does not require me to carry folks so it is a matter of my intention that is critical. If I happen across someone who I feel needs a lift, then, because it is my spur of the moment judgement I am OK (as I can carry a child without the regulation restraint in a situation that I had not foreseen). If I go out at a persons request to pick someone up then I should still be OK but this has not been tested in court yet!

Thanks for the advice Joyce. Anyone want some 3 year old Pennine .....

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#58760 - 30/10/10 08:23 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: slowcoach]
Bliss 60 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/05/07
Posts: 273
Loc: Birmingham
I know you are going to tell me off Joyce - but this is just plain bonkers! I am sure most of us have been really happy about a friendly lift from a B&B owner. This is the compensation and bureaucracy culture gone mad.

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#58767 - 31/10/10 10:42 AM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: Bliss 60]
joyce taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 31/01/07
Posts: 317
Loc: byrness village
There are several thousands of taxi and bus drivers who would disagree. If anyone who fancied it could just do your job without the qualifications or insurances in place I reckon you might see the point.
_________________________
http://www.forestviewbyrness.co.uk
#1 place to stay in Byrness (tripadvisor)

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#58768 - 31/10/10 10:46 AM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: joyce taylor]
joyce taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 31/01/07
Posts: 317
Loc: byrness village
Just an after thought if the same Guest houses want to have a TV for you to watch they need to buy 3!!! seperate licences. A TV licence from the gov. A licence from the performance rights society (to reward the people who sing on the adverts) and another licence (can`t remember the name of it ) for the composers who wrote the music for the musicians to sing on the adverts. Thank goodness there is no TV or radio signal in Byrness.
_________________________
http://www.forestviewbyrness.co.uk
#1 place to stay in Byrness (tripadvisor)

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#58773 - 31/10/10 06:32 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: joyce taylor]
slowcoach Offline
Full Member

Registered: 30/07/09
Posts: 1925
Loc: Yorkshire
An interesting aside was given to me today by one of the "hierarchy". If I come across people who are in distress for some reason then there is no problem in me giving them a lift.

If, however, I come across people who are just lost, missed the last bus, have taken an incorrect path etc etc, and are otherwise fit and well, technically I can only give them a lift to a phone box so that they can summons a taxi!

I'll think I'll pass on this and take a chance!

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#58777 - 31/10/10 09:52 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: slowcoach]
Slogger Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 2893
Loc: West Lancs.
Going further-my van is insured for business and private use. Occasionally I do jobs for say one client followed by a job for their relative or friend who is not at home. Some times the client will accompany me in my van to their relatives address, to let me in. Would this compromise my insurance in the event of an accident and them getting hurt?
Dave.

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#58782 - 01/11/10 10:50 AM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: Slogger]
joyce taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 31/01/07
Posts: 317
Loc: byrness village
Yes as the second job is material reward she would have to get the bus or a taxi
_________________________
http://www.forestviewbyrness.co.uk
#1 place to stay in Byrness (tripadvisor)

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#58783 - 01/11/10 01:24 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: Slogger]
tim smith Offline
Full Member

Registered: 28/10/06
Posts: 1054
Loc: england

It is getting a bit complicated.
Years ago, I was member of a walking club.
We use to go out once a month.
We may have had different leaders each month who would chose a walk and recy it, taking note how much petrol they used to get to the start of the walk and back to York.
On the day of the walk members with cars would take members who had no car , or did not wish to take theirs.
members in each car would then share the cost of petrol.
Accepting payment from passengers will not affect your insurance cover if any money received does not produce a profit
_________________________
ern

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#58785 - 01/11/10 04:51 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: tim smith]
joyce taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 31/01/07
Posts: 317
Loc: byrness village
Friends can car share no problem at all they are not customers so there is no material gain by offering a lift. The WRVS take our local old ladies to the doctors and get thier petrol re-embursed. It is not a business. B&B owners, gas fitters,etc. cannot carry customers of their business (or their spouse,daughters,etc business)You can give a collegue a lift to work but not a customer.Profit or no profit.
_________________________
http://www.forestviewbyrness.co.uk
#1 place to stay in Byrness (tripadvisor)

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#58788 - 01/11/10 07:03 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: joyce taylor]
slowcoach Offline
Full Member

Registered: 30/07/09
Posts: 1925
Loc: Yorkshire
Almost told my boss to *** off and walk today ..... but then I though better of it!

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#58852 - 05/11/10 08:06 AM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: joyce taylor]
Bliss 60 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/05/07
Posts: 273
Loc: Birmingham
In terms of my employment, I may be a bad example to pick. I do self-employed work for councils and housing associations and all the work I pick up has been as a result of my experience in the field and not because of any qualifications. And most of it is work in meetings or on computers - so its pretty low risk - so no insurance. Theoretically they could take me to the cleaners if I gave them duff advice - but then I make sure I don't give them duff advice.

I'm not knocking that you are doing what you have to do to fit in within the law - and fair play to you for doing it. Its just its a strange old world where we have to have loads of bits of paper in order to engage with life.

Presumably if the same things had been in place when I was a teenager hitching all over Europe and getting to meet loads of interesting people and seeing the world etc. - I'd have been standing by the roadside for a long long time.

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#58855 - 05/11/10 10:00 AM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: Bliss 60]
MarkF Offline
Full Member

Registered: 31/01/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Could somebody explain something for me. When in the UK (and Europe) and I hire a car there is an additional charge for an extra driver. I assume this is because the driver is the one insured, not necessarily the car. In talking my my UK in-laws this also seems to be the case with personal vehicle insurance. This does not seem to be the case if I hire a car in Australia. The hire car company does insist on seeing the driver's licence.

In Australia I insure the car, and as long as the driver is properly licenced and is over 25 there is no problem regardless of who is driving or who the passengers are, as long as the vehicle is not used for "hire or reward". Even if the driver is under 25 all that happens is that I end up with a higher excess if there is an accident.
_________________________
Mark
___________________
Walking my own walk

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#58856 - 05/11/10 12:54 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: MarkF]
Slogger Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 2893
Loc: West Lancs.
Mark,
In the UK I am insured to drive my vehicle. My insurance premium depends on which vehicle I drive, how long I have held a full driving license, driving convictions if any, and number of years no claim bonus if any.
As my insurance is fully comprehensive, I am insured to drive a car belonging to someone else but not hired, on a third party basis. Another qualified driver is allowed to drive my vehicle, again on a third party basis.
For an extra premium another regular driver can be named on the policy to have fully comprehensive cover.
It is as simple as a question of whether in the UK, is it the driver or the car that is insured because it is a combination of both.
I remember when I was in the army and based in Germany (where I learnt to drive) it was the car that was insured, not the driver.
There was an increase in premium for younger drivers, however if the car was stolen and crashed or injured another driver or pedestrian, they could claim on the insurance as the car was insured.
In the UK this is not possible as the usual driver or one qualified and driving with his/her permission was not driving.
Dave.

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#58865 - 05/11/10 06:23 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: MarkF]
Stottie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 21/02/07
Posts: 568
Loc: Derbyshire, England
MarkF

I can understand your reaction to the different insurance practices in England and Australia.

My son lives in Australia and is married to an Australian. His in-laws generously offered me use of a car while I was there, and when I quizzed them about insurance they were surprised. It seems the Australian system is much more free and easy and simple than ours (no surprise there!).

There's no point in a layman like me trying to spell out the ways of insurance companies. It's really a case of asking questions when you pick up a rental car - or when a friend offers you use of a car as a favour.
_________________________
Pete

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#58867 - 05/11/10 10:12 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: Stottie]
MarkF Offline
Full Member

Registered: 31/01/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Dave and Pete, thanks for the clarification. Insurance companies work in strange and mysterious ways.

Joyce's issue of "hire or reward" is the similar to Australia. The vehicle has to be licenced and regularly inspected. We also require the driver to have additional training and their drivers licence carries an endorsement to permit driving a public vehicle. However the idea that you cannot give your neighbour a lift because they are on the way to work seems a bit of a stretch even for UK regulations.
_________________________
Mark
___________________
Walking my own walk

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#58879 - 06/11/10 11:34 AM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: MarkF]
joyce taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 31/01/07
Posts: 317
Loc: byrness village
You can give neighbours a lift it`s called car sharing(this also covers hitch hikers) and it is specifically excempt from PSV restrictions but if you are running a business you cannot carry customers.
_________________________
http://www.forestviewbyrness.co.uk
#1 place to stay in Byrness (tripadvisor)

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#58880 - 06/11/10 11:34 AM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: MarkF]
joyce taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 31/01/07
Posts: 317
Loc: byrness village
You can give neighbours a lift it`s called car sharing(this also covers hitch hikers) and it is specifically excempt from PSV restrictions but if you are running a business you cannot carry customers.
_________________________
http://www.forestviewbyrness.co.uk
#1 place to stay in Byrness (tripadvisor)

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#58884 - 06/11/10 03:34 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: joyce taylor]
slowcoach Offline
Full Member

Registered: 30/07/09
Posts: 1925
Loc: Yorkshire
I bet that you're glad you started this eh Joyce!!!!!!

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#59121 - 09/12/10 05:31 PM Re: 17 or 18 days [Re: slowcoach]
tworivers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/02/10
Posts: 46
Well, I have resolved my dilemma as to the number of days, I've decided to do it in 16 days ! This includes a 26 mile final day from Byrness, having stopped at Joyce's, onto Kirk Yetholm. Roll on June !

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